The Grove Church

Charlie Loften: 00:05

The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Hi, everyone.

Charlie Loften: 00:37

Welcome to the Cultivate podcast with The Grove Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas. I'm Charlie Lofton, the lead pastor there. And you are?

Abigail Boone: 00:45

Bagel, the one whom Charlie loves.

Charlie Loften: 00:50

How many people you would have to fight if you really wanted that title?

Abigail Boone: 00:56

Well, nobody else is saying it.

Charlie Loften: 00:58

There you go. But I think I think especially if Leila often heard you say that, would fight you. Meily would definitely fight you. I think Heidi would just laugh. My wife Heidi would just laugh it off.

Abigail Boone: 01:12

And would Lauren be like, yeah, nice try?

Charlie Loften: 01:14

Whatever. She's not trying she's not trying to fight anybody, but everybody else, they might fight you. Creative director? Yes. Podcast producer?

Abigail Boone: 01:23

Yes.

Charlie Loften: 01:25

All the good things. Pop culture expert?

Abigail Boone: 01:28

Yeah.

Charlie Loften: 01:28

History of sanitation expert? That really blew me away earlier today offline. Your vast knowledge of the history of sanitation in the world.

Abigail Boone: 01:37

I don't know how you are not aware of it.

Charlie Loften: 01:40

I'm aware of it, but I could not care less about the sanitation practices of people in the fifteen hundreds. Why would it's a little bit like there's this moment in Sherlock, and it's in the books too, where Doctor. Watson finds out that he has no idea that the earth goes around the sun. And and Sherlock Holmes, why like, give me one reason why it would ever be important for me to know that.

Abigail Boone: 02:04

And that's how

Charlie Loften: 02:04

you feel about I take that out of my brain. I put it over here and I've got space now for something that matters.

Abigail Boone: 02:10

Well, bothers me. Wonder what they did

Charlie Loften: 02:12

with fecal matter in the seventeen hundreds. Like, I don't care.

Abigail Boone: 02:17

Anybody who else cares. You know who to talk to.

Charlie Loften: 02:20

That's a different podcast. The history of the disposal of fecal matter with Abigail Boone. All right. We are in the middle of talking about parables. We've worked our way through several.

Charlie Loften: 02:32

Then we had a couple of Q and A sessions where you thought you were asking.

Abigail Boone: 02:37

I know. Thought I wouldn't be able to fill up one episode.

Charlie Loften: 02:40

Right. And and it was really, I was like, I didn't I didn't necessarily know what to expect. I don't know if it was going to be questions about the parables that we'd already talked about. Hey, I didn't understand this.

Abigail Boone: 02:50

I didn't understand What are you setting?

Charlie Loften: 02:52

It was just like, tell us about the Bible.

Abigail Boone: 02:55

Yeah. We've gotta set the world. World.

Charlie Loften: 02:58

We're world building here.

Abigail Boone: 03:00

See, that's always my biggest critique with any type of book that's, like, dystopian. I immediately don't like it if I can't understand the whole entire, like, what's the political structure? Who's in charge of who? Why did this happen at some point? Was there a war that started this?

Abigail Boone: 03:14

Like, I don't like it if I don't get the background.

Charlie Loften: 03:17

George r r Martin, that is a big thing for him. And and

Abigail Boone: 03:22

Who's George r r Martin?

Charlie Loften: 03:23

And then and then Tolkien, the same deal. Tolkien is Lord of the Rings. Mhmm. And then George r r Martin is the Game of Thrones books.

Abigail Boone: 03:29

Oh, okay.

Charlie Loften: 03:30

And he he that's one of the things he likes to brag about. It's like, can tell you the taxation policies of every So that's

Abigail Boone: 03:36

what I wanna know.

Charlie Loften: 03:37

Yeah. I mean, it's like, okay.

Abigail Boone: 03:38

It matters.

Charlie Loften: 03:39

There you go.

Abigail Boone: 03:41

And that's why I know the history of sanitation.

Charlie Loften: 03:44

Right. And you look at and you you like, you can tell, like, my favorite it's not dystopian, but my favorite kind of, you know, my favorite fictional author right now, mean, is JK Rowling in the Harry Potter books. But you can tell she didn't come into book one planning to build a world. She was planning to tell a story.

Abigail Boone: 04:01

Uh-huh.

Charlie Loften: 04:01

She had the whole story in mind. You can tell, you go back to read book one, she had the end in mind when she wrote book one. But I don't think she had a she'd have a world in mind, and I think it was somewhere maybe around book three or four that she was like, okay, this is a this is a worldwide phenomenon.

Abigail Boone: 04:18

People are gonna want to know how banks are running. Yeah.

Charlie Loften: 04:20

And I'm I was I was like, what about a goblin?

Abigail Boone: 04:23

That

Charlie Loften: 04:23

one's fine. Like, wait, hold on a second. And so then people come back to, then they ask her all these questions

Abigail Boone: 04:30

and she,

Charlie Loften: 04:32

she comes up with, she's got great answers, but you can just tell. I was just like,

Abigail Boone: 04:35

when I

Charlie Loften: 04:35

wrote that twenty years ago, it was not really my concern anyways, parables. So we worked our way through all these ones from Matthew chapter 13, Parable of the Sower, you know, all these parables about the kingdom. And now we're going to make a transition here to Luke chapter 15.

Abigail Boone: 04:54

You reading an ESV?

Charlie Loften: 04:55

I am reading an NIV.

Abigail Boone: 04:57

Luke chapter

Charlie Loften: 04:59

15. K. And there are three parables here, and we're gonna group the first two together, and then we're gonna do the third one as its own. And they all are speaking to something that someone has lost, and then ultimately finds it in some way. The lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son.

Charlie Loften: 05:20

The prodigal son is big enough and long enough to deserve its own time.

Abigail Boone: 05:23

I was about to say, you weren't lying. It's coming up.

Charlie Loften: 05:26

I what? Abigail is shocked that I did not lie on the podcast. Telling the truth. I was Charlie He wasn't just making that up. Alright.

Charlie Loften: 05:39

And so the first two, they are different enough, but I think they they are they very, very similar, so we will group them together.

Abigail Boone: 05:50

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 05:50

And so we will go Luke chapter 15 all the way to verse 10. Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus, but the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered. This man welcomes sinners and eats with them. Pause. Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 06:08

We talked about this last episode. Mhmm. What are we we're trying to figure out what the big idea is of these parables and what is one of the things that I said it was important to figure

Abigail Boone: 06:17

out who is

Charlie Loften: 06:19

he talking to?

Abigail Boone: 06:20

Pharisees and teachers.

Charlie Loften: 06:23

It's kind of a it's kind of a twofold thing here. Right? So tax collectors and sinners are gathering around Jesus, and the Pharisees and the teachers of the law are not happy about it. And so So two

Abigail Boone: 06:37

groups would have heard it.

Charlie Loften: 06:38

Why, why, why are you allowing these people to hang around you? You know, this man is too comfortable being with sinners. And so it is an answer primarily to that question, but I think it is also going to be an answer to help the sinners.

Abigail Boone: 06:59

Yeah, why is He hanging out with me?

Charlie Loften: 07:00

What is going on here? We've already, we're 75% of the way there to really kind of understanding this parable by knowing the context, who He's talking to, and essentially what the question is, what question is he trying to answer. Mhmm. You know, why does this guy like sinners so much?

Abigail Boone: 07:21

Right.

Charlie Loften: 07:22

Then Jesus told them this parable. Suppose one of you has a 100 sheep and loses one of them. Doesn't he leave the 99 in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, rejoice with me.

Charlie Loften: 07:42

I have found my lost sheep. I will tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who do not need to repent. Or suppose a woman has 10 silver coins and loses one. Doesn't she light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, rejoice with me.

Charlie Loften: 08:07

I have found my lost coin. In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

Abigail Boone: 08:17

So is it, like, weird that he's hanging out with sinners because he's supposed to be a spiritual teacher or just, like, are they, like, lepers to them?

Charlie Loften: 08:26

What do you mean?

Abigail Boone: 08:27

Like, are they just like untouchables because they're like a gross part of society or it'd be weird for any teacher to hang out with sinners?

Charlie Loften: 08:35

Well, I it would it would be, you know, the kind of advice that your mom or your grandma gives you, you know?

Abigail Boone: 08:41

Don't hang out with bad people.

Charlie Loften: 08:43

Don't hang out with bad people. Like, if you hang out with bad people, then you are Bad. You're bad. Right? You are the company you keep.

Charlie Loften: 08:52

And so I think there's a sense of which I am so good and holy and perfect that I don't even want you

Abigail Boone: 08:58

To sit at the table.

Charlie Loften: 08:59

I can't even be seen with you. And so if you are who you say you are, you are someone who comes from God and has insight into God, why would you hang around with the morally bankrupt people in our society? If you are so friendly and willing to eat in the homes and have them into yours with the worst of the worst that says something about you. The implication being that what they're into, you're into.

Abigail Boone: 09:30

Okay.

Charlie Loften: 09:31

Right? If if you're, this guy hangs out with prostitutes, I wonder what he's up to. Right? I mean, the implication there is is obvious. And so he has an answer to that question, why would you be doing this?

Charlie Loften: 09:47

I said, well, just imagine, if you will, that you have a 100 sheep, and one of them goes missing. What would you do? What would you do? Mean, you would go and find that sheep and you would bring it back, and you would be so ecstatic that you found it. I've already got 99 sheep, why would I be careful that I missed this one?

Charlie Loften: 10:08

This is the one I'm missing. And I have 10 coins, and I've lost 10% of my wealth here. And I found it. It's not like, man, you've already got nine. Like, each one is of incredible value, and to lose it is a tragedy, and to gain it back is worthy of a huge celebration.

Charlie Loften: 10:30

You would you would see that in things that you possess. So, Abigail, now we'll do q and a. What is the implication here? Who is the person that's lost the coin, and who is the shepherd in the story?

Abigail Boone: 10:46

God has lost the coin?

Charlie Loften: 10:50

Yeah. And who is the coin, or what is the coin?

Abigail Boone: 10:53

Anyone who's not yet following him. Yeah. So this seems like the Pharisees don't see them as a part of God's people who God would pursue.

Charlie Loften: 11:03

Right. That that that is what he's saying. It's like, every everybody in in a sense belongs to God, and some have fallen away in some way. And how would you expect God to feel about that? From their perspective, how God would feel about that is, by sinner, and then it would be on the sinner to turn it around.

Charlie Loften: 11:35

Know where okay, sheep. You know where we are, and you come back here. But if you're not willing to follow the rules and stay with the other sheep, then

Abigail Boone: 11:51

It's kind of funny because aren't sheeps like pretty dumb?

Charlie Loften: 11:54

Yeah. So then that so then this is kinda again, let's let's go back to kinda what we talked about last last couple episodes. We know who he's talking to. He's trying to explain to both sinners and primarily to the Pharisees why Jesus is friends with sinners. And the answer to that question is, they are very precious to God, and God would want to pursue them and to bring them back to Himself.

Charlie Loften: 12:23

So that is that What are what are these parables about? God cares very much about sinners and will work really hard to bring them back to Him. Boom. We we did it. We did it.

Charlie Loften: 12:34

Okay. Now we're looking at, we look at some of the details here, and some details may feel like, well, I mean, that doesn't really matter. It doesn't really add to the point. Now we're kind of getting into something. Does it matter that

Abigail Boone: 12:49

sheep Relating are the sinners to sheep.

Charlie Loften: 12:52

It's a very it seems like it's a very common metaphor. God the Lord is my shepherd. God's a shepherd. I'm the sheep. Like, what parallels are is Jesus trying to make here?

Charlie Loften: 13:10

I mean, I think one that we have to take is that to a sheep, to a shepherd, a sheep is valuable. They may also be dumb, but they're of great value. It's a pet. More Right? Is, it is

Abigail Boone: 13:26

Their income.

Charlie Loften: 13:27

This is my income. It of incredible value to me, and again, probably, there is though some pet like emotive connection. There's an emotional connection, there's a value connection. And so we do make a lot of that sheep are dumb. Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 13:47

And I think we have to accept it.

Abigail Boone: 13:49

I think in the sense that the sheep probably isn't gonna be able to find its way back. Like, it would be better for, like, if you're comparing the sinner to the sheep.

Charlie Loften: 13:58

Which is gonna be really interesting here as we put all three of these together.

Abigail Boone: 14:02

Okay.

Charlie Loften: 14:02

We've got a sheep Mhmm. Who is too dumb to come back. Mhmm. We have a coin that is incapable of Mhmm. I mean, it's an inanimate object.

Charlie Loften: 14:13

And then we've got the prodigal son who does in fact make a turn to choose. So we put all these three things together. We've got something that is incapable, that could theoretically, but really is incapable of it. We've got one thing that it is literally impossible, it has no sentience to it at all, and then one who does have the capability and the sentience and does make a choice. And so, is then Jesus making a theological case?

Charlie Loften: 14:43

Because if all you had were the first two, then the Calvinists win.

Abigail Boone: 14:49

Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's fully up to God's pursuit. Yeah.

Charlie Loften: 14:53

It's fully up to God. So but it's not to say that that isn't in there. Mhmm. But if we have to add in the prodigal son Mhmm. And these are all one idea Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 15:05

Then it is really not about that the owner or the father or whatever has to pursue, it really is more about the heart of

Abigail Boone: 15:17

the

Charlie Loften: 15:18

owner. This this has incredible value to this sheep has incredible value to me where it would seem it seems like I'm willing to put at risk the 99 sheep in order to go get the one.

Abigail Boone: 15:32

Yeah. The rest of the culture that seems suitable to hang out with, I'm willing to leave them.

Charlie Loften: 15:37

I'm I'm willing to risk losing more to go get the one.

Abigail Boone: 15:42

So do you think all the sinners at the table were like,

Charlie Loften: 15:46

but then and then the coin one, it doesn't really work that way. It's not like her going to look for the one coin. Yeah. Another coin was gonna run away. I mean, set them up set them on the table safely and I think, you know, but

Abigail Boone: 15:58

But it was like, why bother yourself with finding something else when you already have something?

Charlie Loften: 16:02

Right.

Abigail Boone: 16:02

But it's still worth it to find that one.

Charlie Loften: 16:05

Right. And so again, this thing is of such great value to me. I will stop whatever it is I'm doing and make this my top priority. My top priority is the reclaiming of what I have lost rather than the safeguarding of what I already have. I mean, it's not, again, the coins weren't really at risk, but maybe, I guess.

Charlie Loften: 16:29

I mean, while you're so obsessed about this one coin, I guess somebody could sneak in and steal one of the other ones.

Abigail Boone: 16:35

Sweep for it. So is that danger for dust bunnies?

Charlie Loften: 16:39

That's the

Abigail Boone: 16:40

part that always catches me with that. Was like, what

Charlie Loften: 16:42

do you

Abigail Boone: 16:43

No. Like, why did she take the time to dust? Why didn't she just look or to sweep? She lit a lamp and swept the house.

Charlie Loften: 16:52

Where where where could the coin be?

Abigail Boone: 16:54

On the ground.

Charlie Loften: 16:56

And so why would you get a broom?

Abigail Boone: 16:59

To clean the ground before you find it?

Charlie Loften: 17:03

What if it's under a chair?

Abigail Boone: 17:05

Get down.

Charlie Loften: 17:07

The broom's doing the work, Abigail.

Abigail Boone: 17:09

Yeah. Okay.

Charlie Loften: 17:09

Okay. I'm just like, That's what I would be I mean, to me that to me to me, it's the opposite. Like, if I if something may have rolled under the couch, if I've got something that's gonna maybe it's because I'm Old. Old. I'm not trying to get on the ground.

Abigail Boone: 17:24

Young and nimble. I'm not trying to get on the ground. Okay.

Charlie Loften: 17:27

Yeah. Yeah. So she she I'm not gonna I'm gonna leave not I'm not gonna leave anything to chance.

Abigail Boone: 17:34

I I So the Pharisees were not missional? No. They They're like evangelical? Not in those are the same thing or not?

Charlie Loften: 17:44

Not in a I have a heart for the lost sort of way. Mhmm. They would have been evangelical in the sense of we're saved, you're lost, you need to know you're lost, but I don't really

Abigail Boone: 17:57

I'm not gonna associate

Charlie Loften: 17:58

with you anything. I care that you're lost. Emotionally It affect me. I'm not sitting here thinking, oh no, she's a prostitute. I hope she finds hope in life in God.

Charlie Loften: 18:09

It's like, how dare you rebel against God, you sinner. I mean, just think about the the angriest evangelists you can imagine and the things that they say about sinners. Imagine that and then just multiply And it's like, I don't it is nothing to me if you repent or not. You are lost, full stop. Just so awesome

Abigail Boone: 18:33

from today.

Charlie Loften: 18:34

Right. Get right, I guess. But like, part of me is like, you may not hear my message because I'm not trying to get too close to you. Maybe you're going to hear it, like, from a distance about what this is what it means to follow God, but I'm I'm really kinda I'm really I'm talking to the 99 that are here. And if you catch wind of it and are willing to stop what you're doing and do something else, I guess that's fine.

Charlie Loften: 19:00

But it's, again, emotionally doesn't mean anything to

Abigail Boone: 19:02

me. And

Charlie Loften: 19:04

so that's what Jesus is trying to do here, to give real life examples of, but imagine if that thing belonged to you, how would you feel about it? This is not from the perspective of sheep number 17. How does sheep 17 sheep 17 doesn't really care about sheep 100, and coin two doesn't care about coin 10. But imagine you are the one that owns it. And so why does He hang out with sinners?

Charlie Loften: 19:35

Because God feels a value and ownership over those who are lost, then by extension, so does Jesus, who either is making at least pushes of claim towards divinity Himself, or saying, and my heart now is aligned with God's heart. And your heart is in fact, disaligned with God's heart. You don't care about what God cares about. He cares about things that are are His that He that have been lost to Him.

Abigail Boone: 20:08

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 20:10

But you you don't. You're I'm aligned with God's heart. You're misaligned with God's heart.

Abigail Boone: 20:18

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 20:19

So

Abigail Boone: 20:20

That's just such an, like, so that's not all of The US, but The US I'm a part of, that's all what churches seem to be about is the loss.

Charlie Loften: 20:32

I could I could take you some places where it has a real insider feel, where it would be like, you know, the the thing where Jesus talks about, you know, there's two people praying, and one of them would have said, God, thank you that I'm not a sinner like that guy. That there's, there's some of that around here where they're all together and we're glad that we're, yeah, we're glad that we're not like them and we got to keep them out. We got to stay out of the world. We got to keep our distance from the world. I remember my church growing up, got time a guy wore blue jeans to church on Sunday, and I could not have ostracized him more if we'd wanted to.

Charlie Loften: 21:11

I don't know. I mean, he may have even been a believer. That was just, you are not willing you're not culturally close enough in the way that you dress Yeah. Or willing to ostracize you, much less what would it have been like Yeah. Had a prostitute walked into

Abigail Boone: 21:25

the would have other teachers the last episode, you were saying that there are other like, Jesus wasn't the only teacher who would go around teaching. Was He the only teacher that was willing to do this?

Charlie Loften: 21:35

We do not really have records of people who got 10 to 15 followers and then faded away. You didn't really have that. I mean, it was certainly countercultural to what the mainstream was. There might have been some fringe people out there, but it would

Abigail Boone: 21:51

have been

Charlie Loften: 21:52

a foreign concept to think, we should have what we would call, in Christian terms, a heart for the lost.

Abigail Boone: 22:03

Mhmm. I was wondering if these sinners are like, this is so cool, someone will finally sit with us. Absolutely.

Charlie Loften: 22:10

That someone who is offering words of hope is willing to give us the time of day. Because if the people who are theoretically the carriers of the hope will not even associate with you, therefore I have no hope. But now someone who is offering hope is coming to me, it at least opens the idea that I could theoretically have access, which they would have not believed that was possible for them because this is by not being able to hear God's word, by never being welcome, you know, if you're God's representatives and you won't talk to me, then what does God think about me?

Abigail Boone: 22:53

Right.

Charlie Loften: 22:54

And so Jesus comes in and says, I am God's representative. This is how God feels about those who are far from Him, and I I share His heart. And so from the mindset of a lost person, I learn about how God feels about me by the way His representatives treat me. So, it's very important here at The Grove, which where we kind of, we have that sort of mentality. It does not matter who you are, we would love for you to come.

Charlie Loften: 23:25

And there isn't anybody who has ever walked in the door has been like, Oh, that's the wrong kind

Abigail Boone: 23:29

of Right?

Charlie Loften: 23:31

Fact, we try to go out of our way to the person who, for one reason or another, and certainly if they're new, but then if they if they present some sort of reason that makes you think that they are outside of the mainstream of who would normally come to a church, you go out of your way to show them love. Like, I now have an opportunity. I don't have to work as hard as the shepherd did

Abigail Boone: 23:53

Yeah.

Charlie Loften: 23:53

Or the person with the coin. They're right here, but I can take an extra step to say, you are especially welcome here today, person who is likely far from God.

Abigail Boone: 24:02

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 24:03

And that, according to Jesus, represents his heart. Now there's one phrase in here. I wanna make sure that we get enough time here. Really important, I think we we have to at least address. He doesn't say it in the second one.

Charlie Loften: 24:15

In the second one, says, in the same way I tell you, there's rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. In verse seven, he says, I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who do not need to repent. Yeah. Do you have a question that comes from that? I mean, you're the question asker.

Charlie Loften: 24:38

Is this

Abigail Boone: 24:39

Well, my first question is, who doesn't need to repent?

Charlie Loften: 24:42

Is he implying there that there are people who don't need to repent?

Abigail Boone: 24:47

I mean, it sounds like it, but that doesn't feel like it lines up with him showing that there is no way for us to upkeep the law.

Charlie Loften: 24:56

Yeah. And so this is why we need to be a little bit careful about gathering up too much theology from parables outside of the one point.

Abigail Boone: 25:10

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 25:10

And the big point is God has a really big heart for those who are separated from Him. And in fact, it seems like they have priority, have priority over the ones that are already in. So obviously this is some sort of it's a dig at

Abigail Boone: 25:33

The Pharisees.

Charlie Loften: 25:34

The Pharisees. And so at best, theologically, I would say that Jesus is being tongue in cheek. I mean, cares more about people. There's way more joy over this person who repents than over somebody who doesn't need to repent.

Abigail Boone: 25:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Loften: 25:53

I mean, not that Jesus would make, guess this is not great for audio. I make the noise that goes with him. Oh, I don't need to repent. I guess that that was enough vocally to kind of describe the facial and hand motions I was making with that. That is that is how I I would read it.

Charlie Loften: 26:11

Mhmm. Because he would definitely believe that those Pharisees did need to repent. Mhmm. Very clear about it. John the Baptist was clear about it.

Charlie Loften: 26:20

Like, now you do not think for one minute that you have escaped this. Yeah. Calls them calls them snakes. Yeah. Right?

Charlie Loften: 26:26

You're the kind of people that go into people's homes to take advantage of. You're you're, you know, you you'll you'll go you'll go all you you'll you're just just you're you're the worst of the worst. Right? Some of the things that kind of ultimately get said about them, more anger is reserved for them than everyone else combined. So Jesus would definitely not have category.

Charlie Loften: 26:50

They put themselves in that category. So I can only imagine, like, me, come again, I'm not I'm not trying to put too much into it. Like, to me, I think there is some implied tone

Abigail Boone: 27:02

Almost like sarcasm.

Charlie Loften: 27:03

And just a little bit of sarcasm, what we would call sarcasm, right, in in what Jesus is saying.

Abigail Boone: 27:09

I think that's a proof that he's funny.

Charlie Loften: 27:11

To me, the number one proof that he's funny is like, man, what kind of one of you, like, a kid asks for a fish, gonna give him a snake. Yeah. Or, yeah, what's a loaf of bread? You're gonna give him a rock. To me, that's funny.

Charlie Loften: 27:21

And my wife disagrees. Like, that's not funny. It's like, depends on how say it. You can say it such

Abigail Boone: 27:25

a It's funny.

Charlie Loften: 27:26

I it's funny.

Abigail Boone: 27:26

I read it the other day, and I found it funny.

Charlie Loften: 27:28

Yeah. It's funny. It's funny. And I I mean, I think this is less funny and more stabby.

Abigail Boone: 27:35

So the pharisees, though, those people who he's sitting with, they would have known those are representatives of God. Like, they identified them as that.

Charlie Loften: 27:45

What do you mean?

Abigail Boone: 27:46

Like, you're saying people sinners are gonna assume however they treat me is how God must see me. They knew Pharisees were that.

Charlie Loften: 27:55

Right. It's the same way it's the same way here. Right? When what is what do non Christians think God is like?

Abigail Boone: 28:02

Well, what are Christians like? Yeah. Uh-uh.

Charlie Loften: 28:05

This this now I know. And so when when a Christian behaves in a hypocritical way, it becomes a problem. And what does God think about me? I'm a sinner and I don't believe in any of this, and they ostracize me. Well, learned, well, if His people don't even like mean, and God is like levels up from that, Most likely, we think He's like that but more.

Charlie Loften: 28:30

So that's what they would have perceived. They are implicitly telling me that I do not have access. And Jesus is going out of His way, both implicitly and ultimately, explicitly here to say, No, you do, but He doesn't say they're already good. He he he we we now get, okay, where do where do we get this term? Well, there's saved people when there's lost people.

Charlie Loften: 29:01

Boom. Here we go. Here here is here is at least one of the origins of that metaphor. You used to be lost, you got found, and then you were rescued and brought and brought in. Right?

Charlie Loften: 29:12

So there, the imagery of someone being lost, you know, this comes from Jesus. And so by implication then, the sinner would have been like, Oh, cool. God cares about me. But also would have been, Oh, I'm I'm a problem. But I think more in the first century Israel, you would not have had to have convinced someone in that category that there was a problem.

Charlie Loften: 29:43

They weren't like, Prostitutes, this is great. Who wouldn't want this? I I didn't think they would have thought that way as opposed to twenty first century America. You have to do a little bit. It would have been like, you know you're lost, right?

Abigail Boone: 29:58

Yeah. You have to convince them that they lost before you convince them they can be saved.

Charlie Loften: 30:02

Right. I mean, like

Abigail Boone: 30:02

But I feel like that makes this even maybe I'm just a softy, but to me, it feels like they just would have been so excited. Almost like again. Know I'm interested in stupid parts of history, but people were so excited about Jimmy Carter because he was such a normal man. Like he's just a farmer cool president. That's just like us Like, that would just feel so cool to them that someone would be like, he's eating lunch with me.

Charlie Loften: 30:33

Yeah. I mean, but, you know, in a you take this same basic concept and you tell it to a different group of people, and they would be offended. Are you saying somehow that I'm lost and in a different category than other people? We're all the same. God thinks about all of us the same.

Charlie Loften: 30:55

We are all the same. And Jesus is definitely putting people into two categories, you know, connected to the owner, disconnected to the owner, and the disconnected one needs to be brought back in some form or fashion. And that is that, you know, it's almost like these parables would be more controversial to the sinner today, while when he He was speaking them, they were controversial to

Abigail Boone: 31:26

The religious.

Charlie Loften: 31:26

The religious people. Mhmm. Be less less controversial to you. Abigail, did you know that God has a heart for lost people?

Abigail Boone: 31:33

Mhmm. Yes.

Charlie Loften: 31:35

Yes? Did you know lost people can be restored back to God?

Abigail Boone: 31:40

Yes. Yes? I mean, it would sinners would be like, you're calling me bad?

Charlie Loften: 31:45

Exactly. Right? So we we've we've kind of flipped it contextually. And so, again, that's kind of like what we've been talking about the last in the q and a's, why it's important for us to understand. Because on its surface to you, on its face, it's like, duh.

Charlie Loften: 32:00

Yeah. God likes lost people. That's all I've ever known. Yeah. But it would have been controversial because it starts with, why would you hang out with a sinner?

Abigail Boone: 32:08

Mhmm.

Charlie Loften: 32:09

And so and there are still then pockets where that this parable as taught would still preach, which would be, why would you not want sinners in your congregation? You are actively trying to keep them out. Why why would you do that? Or people come up to me, why would you let that person come to your church? It's happened before.

Charlie Loften: 32:30

Somebody comes to the church, and and I'll get a call at some point from another pastor in another church. You know who that is. Right? I'm like, no. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Charlie Loften: 32:40

I'm like, okay. Oh, no. Not a sinner in the church. But it's still like there's this this idea that, you know, it it it is an exclusive club. And again, there are some degrees that it's it's right.

Charlie Loften: 32:57

I mean, there are the 99 sheep that are in the pen, but God's heart is for the one that's not. So again, we don't want to beat this metaphor to death. He doesn't ask the other sheep to go after them, but doesn't go forward. But but again, we're not trying to get into the overarching theology of evangelism and free will and predestination and all these different things. It is really a very simple message.

Charlie Loften: 33:20

God has a heart for those who are disconnected from Him and and brings and and has great value and wants wants them to be restored. Then we find out later, hey, actually, I believe that's your job. Yeah. Right? Uh-huh.

Abigail Boone: 33:35

Which we won't cover because it's not a parable. Right.

Charlie Loften: 33:37

Well, can. I mean, how are we going to be? How long are we going to do this? Abigail?

Abigail Boone: 33:42

This whole podcast?

Charlie Loften: 33:43

Yes. How long we're to keep doing this?

Abigail Boone: 33:45

Well, even after you retire, you'll have time. You'll have more time.

Charlie Loften: 33:48

I have more time. We can do the pop culture podcast then.

Abigail Boone: 33:51

Yes, yes, yes, So it'll never end.

Charlie Loften: 33:55

Join us next week. We'll go through the first episode of Pluribus. You so much for joining us. We will, like we mentioned, we'll catch up with the prodigal son next time. I know you're excited about that and you should join us.

Charlie Loften: 34:10

You will of course be here. And as always, you can find out everything that you want to know about our church at thegrovechurch.org/connect. Find out about our services that you can join in person or online, all the things we've got going. There's a form you can fill out if there's anything you wanna communicate to us again. Thank you all for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

Charlie Loften: 34:31

Thank you for listening to the Cultivate Podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And, again, thank you so much for joining us.