The Grove Church

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Cultivate Podcast through the Grove Church. I am

Charlie Lofton, the lead pastor there, and really glad that you've joined us. And we

have resident expert question asker,

Abigail Boone. What's up? I'm great. I'm excited for this. You've

you this is our second time. I I threatened you the

last time we did this that if this went well, we would do it again.

Oh, yeah. Which I was hoping it would be. And then it went well, I

think. I haven't caused you pause yet, but Okay. It still went pretty

well. It went well. It went well. And

so we are actually gonna be wrapping up here today a series that we've

been doing. This, I think, will be our 8th episode. We're just kinda walking our

way through talking about the Bible. We spent a few weeks talking about

why we believe the Bible is authoritative, where we find truth, how

did we get the Bible that we have, and then that's when you and I

did a q and a on that. Yep. And then I had Melanie Alexander as

a guest, and we Baller. Really spent.

She's a baller. She's a baller. No. I mean, like, if she's let's if she

is a baller, let's say it. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Melanie

Alexander, who is a baller, was she did a

few episodes with us. Really, we're talking about why people

don't trust the Bible or don't wanna connect with with God through

through the word, and how we can overcome that, and kind of

some practical helps and tips on getting into the

Bible. And through those 3,

episodes, I was imagining, again, our resident question asker,

Abigail. I bet I bet she's gonna have, some questions

come out of this, and so to wrap that up and probably this whole

series on the Bible, I said, well, let's just do this one more time.

So here we are. I'm just gonna keep doing that. I'm just sitting here, just

waiting for whatever's coming. Amazing. Well, we're gonna do a little light,

rapid fire. Rapid fire? What? You want short you want short you want quick answers?

Yes. K. How many books of the Bible are there? 66. You

know that for a fact? Yes. 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New

Testament. Okay. I could sing a song and get you through most of them. Please.

No. I can do the New Testament one for sure. I don't I don't remember

the Old Testament song, but I could get you all the way to

Daniel in the Old Testament, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna hedge

a little bit through the minor prophets, but then I'll I'll end in

Malachi. I might I might miss 1 or 2 out of order That's right. In

the old testament. There's 6 3927. The 50 United States.

The 50 nifty United States from 13th to

18th. Again, I can't remember the Old Testament at all, but the, the New Testament

is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Next in the book of Romans. I'm

not in that elementary school. No. In elementary school? Element

when I was in elementary school at church. Interesting. Okay. Well, that

was a tangent. How

many letters did Paul write? Woah. 13?

Oh, really? I didn't fact check any of them. 13. Is gonna trust you.

Question mark. Okay. We'll check that later.

Your quick count.

No. You're getting it wrong? 13.

Okay. What's the last book in the old testament?

I already said that. You didn't? I did.

Malachi. Malachi. Malachi. It's exactly what I was gonna say. Mhmm. I'm

sure. What's your least favorite book of the

Bible?

For different reasons, I would say

Deuteronomy, Lamentations, or Revelation.

Oh, interesting. Deuteronomy is almost a repeat of

Leviticus. True. And so it's just like I read this already. Yes.

I get historically why at that moment, Moses wanted

to retell them all of that. I get it. But if you're

especially if you're reading through the Bible, it's different. It's

difficult. It honestly seems like it's you're reading it 4 times

because I don't know why, but everything in the old testament is like,

hey. Don't go to the market this day. Like I said,

don't go to the market this day. Oh, I get you. And then you read

the next book and you read it 2 more times. And then Lamentations

is just depressing. I mean, it's just I mean, I get it. He was sad,

and I'm glad, I guess, that the Bible has these kinds of things,

just like real laments. Right. But, I mean, I wouldn't say I again, not

talking about its quality. You didn't say, what are the worst? Ones

you don't enjoy. Yeah. And then revelation's just weird. And we think we know what

it means, but we don't. I like things that are just a lot

simpler to understand, even if they have a lot of depth in their

meaning. But, Revel, I I

Okay. What's your favorite book of the Bible?

Wow. I I I'm

sorry. I'm sorry that I have to give you 3 again. I would say That's

right. John, Romans, and Galatians. The gospel of

John, I think, is just it's it's unique in the 4

gospels and is really geared towards people who are who don't understand

Jesus and just you get to see the way he encounters people who

are are who are not religious and the way that he loves and interacts with

them with that which I think is great. It's also really good to ask people

who are new to Christianity or considering Christianity. It's a

great book for them. Romans is just a deep

theological workbook, which I think is incredible. Mhmm. And Galatians, I

think, its theme of really helping us understand the difference

between, the freedom that I have because of

what Jesus did mixed with, but I do have a responsibility

to obey God's commandments. I really think that is a foundational

issue that most of us struggle with that I think Galatians speaks to very,

very clearly and is

just personally has been especially over the last few years, has been very

personally impactful to me. Yeah. Paul is an

insane writer. Like, if I were to write a letter,

nothing like his. Yeah. Yeah. Why why say something in 2

words, 1 20 will do? Right. And then, you know what, he loves

more than anything is a good run on sentence. Yep. But then, also, it's

like this kinda like Marvel where you're like, woah. I didn't expect that to get

connected. It ties it together. Yeah. It

ties it all together. Yeah. Like, it just never write like that.

I wasn't we may not have time for you to answer this, but food for

thought. What would be a letter sent to our church

that you would just be like, I have to read this in front of everyone?

What like, which one of those which one of No. No. No. You get a

letter today, like the letters in the Bible. So so some

apostle somewhere sends me a letter. Letter to the Grove, the Groveians.

The Grove. You're asking me what the what the content of that is? That

you'd say, I've gotta just read this in front of the whole entire story. I

mean, if it was from an apostle, I would regardless of what it was, I

think I mean, if I if I felt like God dropped it out some way

through an apostle writing it, I don't think it would matter what it said. Right.

I would feel the need to read it. Right. But if just some

randar sent me a letter, which they do, they'll send me I get I get

emails all the time. So, like I'm not trying to read them. The Godfather

sent you a letter. Marlon Brando? Yeah.

And then you're like, alright, church. I've got the letter

for everyone. Yeah. I'm I don't think I'm playing

no. I'm out of my mouth. Alright. Well,

turns out you know the Bible. It's a good thing that you know it and

are leading us in that way. We'll hop into the questions, though.

Okay. So y'all covered a ton, you and Melanie

did, from practical all the way to kinda just, like, her

experience and what other people's experience with the Bible is. So these questions kind

of bounce around in a couple of different categories.

So one thing that I have

friends who have asked this question, my

people in my family have asked it. The

text that we're reading is super old. Okay.

And like, I just read a book a couple of weeks ago. That was

the 7th edition because things have been updated in our

world. But you're not gonna find a 50th edition of the

Bible. Right. I gotcha. So how do you even trust a book that's

not been amended or even added in

secular ideas that we have now? You know? Right. I

mean, the first thing that pops into mind, a few things that all at once

there, the first one that pops into my mind is kind of, like, updated by

whom for for what reason. And I think when most people talk like

that, they think about it in terms of updating it for the

culture Mhmm. As if, hey. Culture has evolved and

then changed in such and such a way where

we need to kind of update some of these kind of this some of this

outdated thinking. Right. The reality of it is the Bible from the

very beginning was meant to be countercultural. The

we the the Bible can get criticism, but it is completely unfair,

and I would say not particularly thoughtful to say that it was

affirming kind of the traditional beliefs of its time.

Right. You don't need to write commands to tell people to

do things that they're already doing Right. Or to believe things they already

believe. And so there is there is especially

in the New Testament, these letters that Paul was writing were very countercultural,

and the things that Moses was saying in the Old Testament, that you guys have

been living as slaves in in Egypt for 400 years. You've

probably forgotten who God is and who you are

as his people. Let me remind you of all of these things, and we're

going to create something that is very different than the world around

us on purpose. And so it was

the Bible was always meant to be countercultural and to kind of to be a

way we're gonna live above these kind of cultural pulls

that our culture can do to us. And so I do I I I don't

even under like, if the Bible were to be updated,

it certainly shouldn't be in that regard, and the other thing that I

think is, is this a script? Is

this a is this a book? Is this a word from

God about the way life is and

the way morality should be and kind of the kind of

people that God has called us to be. Right. If

that's true, then it doesn't need to be updated. Right.

It's still a place. Thing that it needs is I need to understand it well

enough to understand how these are principles apply to this context. Right. So

I'm not I'm not updating the principles to fit them into my context.

I'm understanding the principles and applying them to my context. Right.

And so in that sense, the Bible doesn't need to be

updated. It just needs to be understood and applied

in a new context. I like that.

Especially, you know, we've talked some with our staff

and, even just leaders of the church about

the bible isn't necessarily gonna affirm one

side of one type of identity that you want it to. Right.

It's gonna be more of the middle, countercultural, and

more so character traits. Yeah. I mean, it's like we got a

culture we got cultures. I mean, we got, you know, red versus blue in America

right now and these kind of these very different pull pulls that we

have, and we we desperately want God to be on our

side versus their side when God is on his side, and he's asking us to

live very differently, whether you're talking about the way that Paul talks about

freedom or the way that Jesus talks about the kingdom of God, or the

way that Moses and the authors talk about, you know, living as the chosen

people called out by God, all of those things rise

above what would be considered 2

very natural poles that that they're

fighting. So they Paul's battling between a a a a

rule based Jewish culture Right. And a

hedonistic gentile culture, Roman culture,

hedonistic. What is right is determined by what

feels good. K. Right? So he's not affirming either of

those two things. He's not saying, hey. We should live in a very rule based

religious system, and we should not just do whatever feels good.

He's calling us to something very different. And so we look back

on it, and because it feels more restrictive than what we want it to

be, he's like, oh, he's just affirming

their kind of rules based culture, and I was like, no. No. No.

No. He his strongest words that he had to

say, I think, were against the people who were falling into rules based

culture in Galatians. I mean, he does say some things about people who were

experimenting a little bit more with what I would say is hedonism in Corinthians,

but I would say his harshest words, Galatians, Colossians,

are more towards people who are viewing Jesus and a

relationship with him through a lens of rules. And so he

was this same pull that we have between these two ideas

is something that I believe existed back then. Right. And, again,

Paul's not talking about splitting the difference between those two, but living very differently than

both of them. Right. So not just picking a side that's actually countercultural no

matter what culture Right. The Bible is applied to. Yep. Yeah.

Well, pivot us just a tiny bit. Something you just said made me think about

it. Melanie was talking about how the whole entire Bible is one

cohesive story. Right. Even though they feel kind of different

along the way. So kind of

recap for me what you would say is the main theme of the Bible.

And as you're reading, are you supposed to be searching for

that main theme everywhere you're looking? Because I read the old testament

and new testament, and it seems different stories.

Right. So it's a little bit to me I can't remember if I

said this with Melanie or not, but it's a little bit like,

the gospels is a little bit like the way that Star Wars

was. You know, episode 4 came out first. Oh, I've never

seen Star Wars. So episode 4 came out first, and then they made prequels. Right?

And so it's almost like even though, obviously, these came out in chronological

order, that Jesus is kinda the main character of this thing.

And, like, you you start there, and you read about Jesus and and His

transformational life, His transformational death, and then how His resurrection

kind of changed the course of human history. And then you read the old

testament to see how we how we got there, and then you

read the new testament to see okay, well, now based that this

has happened, how should we live? Right. So if I were to give an

overarching picture to the story, and there are people who are way more eloquent in

this than I am, I would say that God has

created a world, a universe, and a people to be

in relationship with, and these people

rebelled against him, and the

story is the story of God bringing

those people back to him. Right. So they there it is a story of

rebellion and redemption, and so you see

you see cycles of that all throughout the Old Testament,

ultimately building towards the ultimate moment of redemption and

reconciliation that happens with Jesus. Right. And then you

see in Revelation, which I've already said is kind of confusing,

kind of how the story supposedly is gonna end. Right. But, again, it is

probably the least understood book of the Bible, but it kinda gets us

from God created to the rebellion

to all of these different ways that God is

redeeming and and bringing them back and trying to reconcile

them that culminates ultimately what Jesus did. Yeah.

So I'm gonna hop us down the question list. This may be kind of out

of order. So Jesus is the one that is

the reconciliation, the Right. Culmination of what was happening in

the Old Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong. But in

the 1st book of John, they describe him as the Word.

Okay. And I think of the Word being the Bible.

And it says that he was there in the beginning.

What? Okay. So the what the what is being

translated there in John chapter 1, in the beginning was a word,

and the word was with God, and the word was God. Right. The Greek word

there is logos, l o g o s, or I

mean, obviously Logos. Yeah. Logos.

And that is a that is a Greek philosophical

concept Mhmm. Essentially of the

eternal wisdom in the universe. Mhmm.

And so what he is doing is taking a a a

secular philosophical principle that existed

in that culture. Again, the gospel of John is a very evangelistic

book. Okay. It is written to people who don't know Jesus to help them understand

who Jesus is, and primarily a non Jewish audience, a

non Jewish, non Christian audience. Okay. So I'm gonna take

this philosophical concept that you already

have and tell you that That would have already had it. That this

idea that there is this eternal

wisdom that is both that is both part

of God, but different than God,

this idea that you have is actually was

manifested in the person of Jesus Christ. Okay. And

so it kind of helps us understand kind of the

theology of who Jesus is, of he is separate

from God the Father, but he is equal to God as a God, but there's

just one God. Right. And you put all of that together,

and that fries our brains when we think about it.

This was his way of helping them introduce them to who Jesus

is with a concept that they already had a measure of

familiarity with. So he's using it in a different way than what

they're using it, but it is it is it is a it's a it's

a starting ground Mhmm. For them to understand what ultimately

is a very difficult concept, which is, how do I reconcile the fact

that Jesus is God, the father is God, but there's just one God? And Jesus

was a person, but Jesus is also God. Well,

it's he he's he's he's very similar to this idea of

logos, and if you understand

that and imagine that Logos became a

person. Okay. And if Logos becomes a person,

that's who Jesus is. Okay. So not necessarily the Bible.

Right. Right. And so we we we use the

word as kind of slang shorthand to refer to the Bible. Right.

Abigail, you need to get be be getting in the word. Gotta get gotta get

in the word. Right. Right. Right. Right. And so you know, and then you'll see

other things, like in Hebrews where it talks about the word of God as living

and active and sharper than any 2 edged source. Question. It seems

like 90% sure

that in that sense, he is talking about written words. Okay.

However, if you wanna go down a rabbit hole, you

can see that there is, in fact, some debate about whether or not that

Hebrews 412 Is about the Bible. Is talking about the Bible or is making

a reference to Jesus. It seems unlikely to me that it is referencing

Jesus because that is 2 completely different audiences,

and the book of Hebrews was written to a primarily religious

Jewish audience Okay. Who would not have been

as familiar and into that concept. So if you think of the Bible

as having one author, God Mhmm. Then you cross reference word,

and you get John 1 and Hebrews 4. It's like, oh, maybe it's the same

thing. But if you think about it as two very different

authors writing to 2 very different audiences, it seems

unlikely that there's those are connected the same way. Which is to me, this is

kind of a side note. I mean, I don't think this is even maybe it's

in one of your questions or whatever. We wanna be really careful with cross

references. Okay. So I'm trying to I look at this phrase. I don't know what

it means. I'm gonna find other places where the Bible uses that phrase.

Mhmm. The further you get away from it's okay.

It's now a different author Right. Different audience, or

completely different time period, you just need to be a little more careful. So

I look at a phrase that Paul uses. Like, I wonder what this means. I

wanna find maybe other uses where Paul used it. Right.

But if I take the same phrase and, like, oh, this is very similar to

this phrase that Solomon used in Ecclesiastes different. Just be careful

Right. Unless Paul is specifically referencing the Old Testament

passage. The further you get away time wise, audience wise, and author

wise, the more

a a cross reference can trip you up. That's interesting. And it's better to find

the meaning of the phrase that you're struggling with Within that context. In the context

in which it is used rather than the context in which it's used in

another part of the body. Right. So you're putting

my mind in so many different directions. Answer this one quickly.

K. Do you need to so seeming I might have

understood this incorrectly, but your the word

becoming flesh, that audience would have been familiar with

the analogy or whatever that he was painting. Right.

Do you think that we need to familiar ourselves with Eastern culture and

all of that stuff to understand what the Bible's communicating?

I think I wanna give a yes, no answer to that. Okay.

I believe that because of who God

is and because of his ultimate big picture desire to

communicate truth with his people, I think that someone

with a humble heart and a desire to learn can pick up

the bible and learn and grow and understand its

basic principles. Right. So I don't I don't I don't think that anyone needs

to feel any real prerequisites to

allowing God to speak to you from the scripture. And if you feel some

intimidation about that, there's great places to start. Like I've mentioned, the gospel

of John for 1, think the Psalms for another are some that

are very user friendly. Well but for a different type of person, I mean, they're

just they're just people pouring out their heart to God. Right.

These these are just poems where people are pouring out their heart to God. And

if you under if you understand and like poetry Mhmm. And you wanna

learn

There's some very user friendly parts to the Bible.

And so I don't think that you need to have these these all of

this off book knowledge about culture and things

to be able to understand it. But the flip side of it is, not only

is I think that it has it is it can be a very user friendly

book, there's also a depth and richness to it that I

think is almost

infinite. And the more understanding we

have of of the author, the audience, and the culture,

the deeper and richer and more fuller our understanding can be.

Mhmm. And so this it's almost like the I mean, this is

this I didn't make this up, but people talk about a pool. Like, a like

a pool has a a a kiddie section and a deep

section and train all sorts of things where there's, like, every everybody

everybody can swim here. And is are you having more fun in

the deep end? Yes. Yeah. But you got you but

you need you need you need to get there. Right. But that's not the same

as to say that the pool is not friendly or that you can't enjoy it

until you can learn how to swim in the deep end, but the Bible definitely

has a deep end. Right. And so I don't want the presence of a deep

end to keep people from playing in the shallow part, but

it's also I don't think it's I think it's important to not stay in the

shallow part because some of the most exciting things you can do in a pool

are in the are in the deep end. Yeah. So

I'll put a pin on what I was about to ask you. There's

actually someone recently that told me that there feels like there

can be a hopelessness of, if I'm not a theologian,

I'm never actually gonna understand what the Bible is teaching. And Melanie did

kind of explain that there's tools out there to do this and that, but my

fear even kind of pops up of the heart is deceitful

and you can't trust yourself. So I at least gotta get a

theology background or I have to have a theologian and a book sitting right next

to me so I can understand this. But then you and Melanie

encouraged someone on their own to engage the Bible in their own

study. There's a balance there. I mean, it

if we believe that the Bible is the, quote, word of God, that we believe

that it is inspired by God and is God's

he's given it to us to help us know and understand who

he is, it should be treated with care. You don't want to

read something and say, well, I read this, and I now now I know what

God said. God said and, like, oh, oh. Right. Unless you're quoting him, I wouldn't

I would be I'd be really careful. And so I I think

there is there is there is reason to say

that I want to be careful. Right.

But there's a difference between being careful in my conclusions

and feeling intimidated by connecting with it.

Right. And so that is why, again, I think the

greatest balance is is that we think about, at least in

part, that my study and reading and understanding of the Bible is

something that I do in community. Mhmm. Because,

you know, we are we are learning from one another. And then also,

even the community in which I'm reading and studying the Bible sits

itself as a part of the larger community

of Christians worldwide that sits in a that sits as

a part of the Christian community that began

2000 years ago Right. After Jesus came back to life. Right? Right.

And so we don't we don't where even when we're reading the Bible by

ourselves, we are not reading it completely in isolation, and

the dangerous thing would be to do it in isolation, where I'm going to

do it separate from any of people that I'm in community with,

separate from the church that I'm a part of, separate from the capital c church,

separate from, historically, what Christians have believed.

Right. So it does seem

like, historically, and this is more so my history nerd

coming out, but more, like, public readings

or reading the bible literally only in

community was the way that it would exist for a long time. There wasn't a

bible at home that you could read. And even once

they got access to it, there would just be times where you would read it

as a family, or you would it's more of a community read thing. And it

seems like now it's more of a isolated activity. Yeah. One

of the things that I think that turn would turn American Christianity on its head

is if we realize that almost every command that you read in the Bible is

a plural command. So if I were to say,

hey. Let me tell you what you should do. You should

blank. If we realize that almost every time that the

word you is used, it is a plural you. Y'all. Right. It's if

yeah. If you trans if you took all the yous and replace them with y'alls,

we probably would live very differently. Right. But we live in a

very individualistic society right now. Yeah. And

so then we then we struggle with that. But it it

you know, we we we a little bit to use something that Melanie said

in one of the previous episodes. There's a baby in the bath water deal where

it's like it's a really great thing that now you have personal access to be

able to read and study and understand the the scripture on your

own, but to throw out with that the essential

nature of that being something that we we do

together. Right. Because you, on your worst day,

are gonna have some really bad ideas. Oh, 100%.

And so when we are alone with our own bad

ideas for an extended period of time, or we only surround ourselves with

people who or be the kind of people who are gonna buy

into our bad ideas Right. I mean, even a group of 3 or 4 people

can come up with some really bad ideas. Cults didn't Or 2 or 3.

Cults didn't birth out of nowhere. They didn't come out of the ground.

Right? It is it is grounded in people getting together

and separating, isolating themselves from the

bigger picture of what God is Right. God's people have done

and believed for centuries. Right. I

think that would be rad like, that'd be radical change, but it would be cool

to see more of a communal Right. Culture or community based culture.

And it's it's happened even more in the last 5 years where church

attendance becomes a little more optional Right.

Because I don't need that. You just don't need that. What do you mean? What

do you mean you don't need that? What do you mean you don't need podcast.

Well, yeah. What do you mean? I I I read the Bible some. I listen

to podcasts. Like, well, I I need I need I I need to be do

I'm I'm I'm commanded to do this with people. Right. The command

to worship is a plural command. Okay. Then you get the verb

to worship, Mhmm. And it is in a verb in a command form, and it

is a plural command. Right. Y'all need to worship. Yeah. Not

you need to worship. Y'all need to worship. It's great that you've got a

Spotify playlist, and you're listening to worship music. You should totally do that. And

y'all need to worship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That is challenging for the American culture, for sure.

So let's

talk a little bit about the harm that's

been done with the Bible. I know that's kind of a broad stroke,

and we could go into a 1000000 different directions of how the Bible has

been used to harm people in different ways. I mean, it essentially

seems like someone who's desiring some sort of control. Right.

And they distort it for that end for themselves.

So a lot of people probably could be in that position. And

the last thing they would ever wanna do is to trust the Bible again.

So, how would you say someone starts to work through that? Why should they

trust the Bible again? Because that's the one thing that hurt them. So

why should they trust it again? And how do they go back through the

process of reengaging God and trusting what it says for

them? Honestly, when when people make that sort of argument,

it it lands better with me when they say, how can I learn to trust

the church again? Okay. You know? Because I felt this. I heard

this. They said this. They did this. It's hard for me to trust the church

again. Mhmm. Because I on a on a on a level, I'm like, because

you're right. I mean, the church the church did do that. I can't distance

myself and say, no. No. No. That wasn't our church. That was their church.

Right. We are more connected than we than we want to be.

Right. When a when a when a when someone comes to our

church, having come from another church in another city that did

some harm to them We're so old. I don't get to say, well, that's not

us. Right. I can say we're trying to not be like that, but that was

us. We we we did that. Right. K?

So that I that argument resonates with me. When we throw

the Bible into that, and I'm like, man, what the Bible do? K. What

the Bible do? I mean, this is this made me people may not

like the way they sound. The Bible was just sitting there. It's not not true.

I mean, it was I mean, it was it was just it was just it

was there, and God's truth was

there, and somebody chose to ignore it and distort

it and say false and hurtful things. Right. That

is not that is not the Bible's fault. Someone used to

be is in fact a also a victim in that crime. I know

I know the Bible is an inanimate object, so I'm not trying to We can

personify it. Or we're just yeah. Because it's personification. Right? It's it the Bible's a

the Bible's a victim. It

you know, God didn't want his Bible to be used that way. Right.

He didn't ask for it, but it happened.

So it is not the Bible that did damage. It is the

church, maybe a particular church, maybe a particular person,

maybe a particular approach. And so, really,

as with most of these things, arrogance,

pride, control, those are the

enemies. Right. And they are still the enemies,

and so we want to be careful in the small c churches

that we attend and the the leaders that we put ourselves under

that we're not we don't have peep we're not we're not with people who

kind of have this kind of reckless authoritarian

approach to it. Right. I would be I would say lesson learned, I'm gonna

avoid authoritarian type

churches with a lot of arrogance and pride. Yes. You you should avoid

that, but the that's not that's not the same as the

Bible. Yeah. So I would I would just say, like and, again, just

because bad people quoted the Bible doesn't mean the

Bible Is bad. Is bad. So you just need to reengage with

it and learn it. Right. And kind of doing that teasing out process

of that was the Bible, not

or the Bible actually says this. The church said that. It can actually be a

very healing healing journey to

come across some of these passages and verses that were used

and to see them in their appropriate context and what was meant

when they were written and be like, woah. Woah. That can be

very clear. Attest to that. Yeah. I mean, just like that, that is that is

that is beautiful. Right. And then you have that

experience enough, and I think it can be part of the healing process

of, I'm no longer, when I'm reading the Bible, I'm no

longer hearing it in that guy's voice. Right. Right. I'm hearing

the Holy Spirit's voice. Yeah. Well, we already

kinda mentioned personification. I feel like the Bible does

personify the Bible. Okay. They it it talks about itself

in ways that kind of can seem superhuman and

confusing. Or it's the Bible is sharper than a double edged sword. It's living and

active. Or it has the power to renew your

mind. Or even the way in Psalm

119, it talks about, like, how does a young man keep his way

pure by knowing your word and all that type of

stuff. And then even I think it's in Deuteronomy where it talks about

putting a signpost on your head and knowing it and putting it on

your hand. Like, that's a lot of really, like you would never talk about

just any book like that. You know? I would never just I'm

gonna disagree with that. Okay. Because I think people do talk about books like that

all the time. Really? You ever met a Harry Potter person? Okay. Well, the

I'm no. I'm I'm serious. But do you The way that they talk about

do they Do they meditate on it? Asking if if Harry

Potter people put words from the book onto their body. Okay.

They do. They do. Are you asking is that is that what you're saying? Lord

of the Rings people? Sure. Narnia people? Yes. I mean, there

are I mean, now we got a new wave of people reading the Dune books.

I mean, there's like of of course. I mean, I think that

if we But do they think the book is living inactive?

What I'm saying is to believe that a book

has power to change you. Right. That's not a

crazy thought. That is not a crazy thought. Yeah.

Because in the same way that music

music has a power. Right. But what what

is the what is the power? What is the power that a book has? What

is the power that a word has? What is the power specifically that,

God's word has? And, again, just even in that euphemism that we use to

describe the Bible, God's word, what we're saying is is that

these are things that God says. Right. And so if it

is a truth that comes from the architect of the universe, then, of

course, the understanding and embracing of that truth is gonna have

incredible power. Right. In the same way, even a mediocre self

help book can or a really good leadership book can Right.

Or a really inspiring fictional story can. Like Harry Potter.

Like Harry Potter. Right? And so you have you have you have so if

you take these things that just an inspirational

story, true or not, or inspirational

thoughts about leadership or self care or whatever,

when properly applied, they have the power to do something

great. If you add to that, that actually the source of these ideas

is the God of the universe, you would expect there to be a multiplying

impact to that. Right. So a powerful word has I mean,

words have the ability to do incredible things.

We have the ability at any given time, and James talks about this,

to destroy people with our with our words.

Right? The words have incredible power. You collect them all together in a

really big book, they have enormous power Right. Especially if it's well

written, especially if it has the power and voice of

God behind it. Right. And so I don't think it is

too crazy a concept to think

about a book having a lot of power and authority.

Right. Whether or not you believe that the Bible is

God sourced or not Sure. It is true that words have

that level of power. You put God's sourcing behind it,

and now its potential is off the charts Right. For what what it has the

power to do in your life. I I mean, even is it 2nd Timothy that

says the Bible is unbound? Or is that something else?

Or the power of salvation? Yes. 2nd Timothy is the one that says that, you

know, that to teach, rebuke, correct for training in

righteousness, that you may be thoroughly equipped for everything. That whole

sermon series. That no matter what good thing

you may come across in your life that you need to do, the Bible

has the potential to equip you to do that. Right. Like, I can

always do right. I have the power to always do

right if I allow the scriptures to speak

to me. And, again, the Bible doesn't specifically direct every potential

situation you could ever find yourself in. Right. It doesn't say anything

about the Internet. Right? It doesn't say anything about

dating life. It doesn't say anything about that, but the principles that are involved

there have the ability to equip you Mhmm. To make

the right decisions and be the right person in any context. Right.

So oh, wait. I could just ask you so many more

questions. I'm sure we're getting close on time. Let's

talk a little bit about translations. Okay. As you and

Melanie mentioned that you both grew up on some version that I've never

heard of before. Correct. But now there's ESV, NIV,

which, as you know, and I'd be willing to tell anyone in the

public, I got kind of beef with. You got beef with?

ESV and NIV. Okay. And as I've said to you, it sounds like I'm reading

Shakespeare. And let me tell you NIV feels like Shakespeare? I did not

pass with any flying colors in English in high school. Neither

did I. Well, I passed. I had good grades, but I hated it. I didn't

like it. I couldn't do it. So to me, it just sounds super

confusing. And I can acknowledge that Paul's a great writer,

but I'm still I don't know why you would structure a sentence like that

to get me to this point to understand this thing. So I love

the message. I love the passage train passion translation.

It gets me the same idea. And so why do

you suggest certain translations when it's all just

the same story? We need to be

careful. We wanna be a little precise by our

definition of the word translation. Okay. Okay?

If I take something in one language

and translate it into another language, I am

either taking the words or the phrases and say,

here's this word. What is the equivalent word in English? Right. Here's

this phrase. What is the equivalent phrase in English? That is

what a translation is. What was the Bible

originally translated to? Okay. That's a different question. Let's let's

let's let's finish let's finish let's finish this thought.

You you get something more like the message, and it's really

not it's really closer to what what would you call a

commentary. Okay. I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna take these

ideas and put them in even more common words.

And so it's almost like when you read something like The Message,

you're getting not only the translation into English, but you're also just kind of

getting his summary of what he thinks it means. Mhmm.

So the more direct a translation is, the

more complicated the wording might be, but the more accurate it is

to what the author meant when he wrote it. Okay. So

when you read the message, you're not simply learning how to trust

the Bible, but you're also figuring out how much can I trust Eugene Peterson

as a person, and it is great to love Eugene Peterson?

I don't have any particular beef with Eugene Peterson and

his approach. He and I don't necessarily agree on everything,

but I'm not trying to beef with him. But it

is it is the equivalent of

listening to a sermon about the Bible closer to listening to a sermon about

the Bible than reading the Bible per se. Okay.

And so,

again, that's it's not a bad thing. The the word that I was looking

for earlier and I couldn't find is paraphrase. It's more of a paraphrase. Right. Okay.

It's different than a translation. Yeah. And so I think it's important to

study translations. We can

read a paraphrase, but we study translations. And you're saying

that because that gets us as close to basically reading Paul's original letter. Well, it's

it's it's it's a group of really intelligent people who

and putting those words and phrases into the best possible English

words and phrases so that we can really understand what Paul meant

because I don't read Greek. Right. And so are

NIV and ESV the only ones in that category? No. There are other almost

everything that you're gonna find apart from things like, thing things

like the messengers, thing called the what was it? The good

news bible growing up. I mean, there's there's sorts of things that they would say.

They'll say that they're paraphrases. Okay. But most of them are most of these, you

know, NAS, King James, New King

James, all of these things are going to be

our translations. And you can look and you can discover kind of what

the principles were that the different groups of people use to decide how they

were gonna translate. So somebody who was gonna look at each Greek word

and try to make an equivalent English word,

that's gonna be more precise, but also more cumbersome.

But it's like, hey. I'm not gonna look at a word. I'm gonna look at

a phrase that's gonna be less precise and more user friendly. Mhmm. So you're

gonna get everything from the

the King James to New King James to NAS to

ESV to NIV to NLT, and there's just gonna there's

a there's a spectrum there from how precise the

translation is, but then there also comes a point where I'm not

translating word for word or phrase for phrase or sentence by

sentence. I'm really just paraphrasing. And at the at the point at

which we cross the line, I'm not saying that there's anything dangerous about that. Right.

But it's just it's just different and should just be treated with a little more,

hey. I'm I'm reading what this dude thinks the Bible says Right. Not

what the text said when it was written as close as we can

understand it in my language. Right. Right.

I'm getting used to NIV. Okay. We're growing in it. Perfect. It's

just a little bit confusing. Yep. I get it. So

what are some of your favorite resources that you would say

someone could look into when they're trying to study the Bible? Maybe for

the first time or they've been doing it for a while, but these are just

some go to things for you to understand when you're con or find answers

when you're confused about what you're reading.

Man, I just just read it. I just know it. No. Just

read it. Just read it. Just read it with people that you trust. Yeah.

And, there there are plenty of resources out there

in, you know, commentaries and these kinds of things. And I

like, I'm I'm hesitant kind of, like, to recommend one of them. Mhmm. I mean,

I'll get you get you an you get the NIV study bible,

it'll be it'll be fine with the things that they're saying there will be will

be really good, and you and you and you'll learn plenty.

But, also, don't I hesitate to recommend things like that because, again,

I don't want you to believe that there's a gap between you and

God's word. I like that. I don't want you to believe that. Yeah.

But, ultimately, I get into this, and I'm kind of piddling around in the

shallow end. It's like, I don't think that I'm understanding this well.

Right. Then make sure that you're doing this with some people, and, collectively, we

can. And then let's talk about commentaries or study

Bibles or those kinds of things. And so I'm I mean,

I know that's not the answer you asked for, but No. I appreciate that,

though. What what what would I recommend? Pass. Pass.

Okay. I like that. I mean, it's definitely helpful to think

through if you're just now starting, maybe your next step

is how can I find a few people to read the Bible with? Right. And

to start with the most user friendly ones And, yeah, and you said John. That

was one of my questions. Questions. Start start with the gospel of John. It's very

it's very straightforward. It's written simply for first

yep. And then I would read then read the other gospels, read the book of

Acts, and then slowly try to work your way through some of

Paul's letters. And, again, I think you will get

a a an initial understanding of that. That'll be really helpful, and I'm

I'm I'm still a part of a church. I am I'm in a in a

small group with some other people where we're studying it together

and stay connected to God's community. You don't you you,

yes, stay connected with God's community. You have the the ability to

read and understand the Bible yourself. Right.

So any other thoughts on why the Bible is awesome?

I mean, the I'll I just love that

word from 2nd Timothy 3. Mhmm. It's a made up word that Paul made up

made up a maybe, like, the first person that decided, what should we call this

place where we wash our cars? Right. Right. We call it car wash. I

mean, somebody made up that word, and his word, theo nistos, is a made up

word, God breathed, and just really

strongly suggests both the source of where it came from,

and also you just can't help but make a mental, emotional

connection to what God did in Adam to

give life to him, that it's not it's sourced from him, and the

breath of God carries life. Yeah. And so this comes

from God, and it has therefore, it has life in

it. That's where I can find life. God put his

life into it, and so I can find life from God

through it. I

I just really think that if we overcome some of these stereotypes

and misconceptions that we have from the past about what God's word is,

I think we will be pleasantly surprised what we'll

see God do. Yeah. And the way Mel Melanie,

as we learned, talks about it with it truly

transforming her and which made me think about the personification of the bible, that

it can sound kind of crazy, but you see evidence in people's lives that once

they started to intake the Bible, there's actually noticeable

Yeah. Growth and change and healing that happens

just from reading an ancient text. Well, you killed it

again. Oh, thanks. Good job. Those great questions. I know you probably got 50 more

on there. We did uncover that. I know we didn't. Hey, and I hope you

enjoyed it too. I hope you enjoyed, Abigail last time just kinda talking

and reflecting, and I really do hope that you will spend some time, get the

courage, and spend some time reading and studying God's word for yourself.

And as always, thanks for joining us with the Cultivate podcast.

Would love to connect with you on a Sunday morning. If you're not connected, you

can find everything about us at the grovechurch.org/connect.

And I'm Charlie Lofton, lead pastor here. Abigail Boone,

thank you so much for joining us.