The Grove Church

Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate podcast with the Grove church. Thank

you so much for joining us. I'm Charlie Lofton, the lead pastor

there, and we have Mark Freeman here with us. What's up, dude? It's

good. You prepared to continue to be our Old Testament minor

prophet expert? I have grown in knowledge since our last

podcast. Really? Oh, yes. That's impressive.

Your head seems marginally larger. It's like, it's just your brain is

getting bigger. Hey. Yeah, so Mark and I

are on staff together at the Grove church. And again, thank you so much for

joining us, especially if you are new. Really glad that you have found

us. And we are starting today a series

where we're just kind of working our way through the minor profits.

And last week we kind of intro the idea just to kind of make sure

we all understood what we meant when we said that we were going through the

minor profits. We talked about what makes a prophet, a minor prophet versus

a major one, which is at its core length of the book,

not quality of prophet, and that a prophet is someone who God gives

a message to, to deliver to a certain group of people. And then

we also talked a little bit about the history of Israel and the splitting of

the kingdoms and those sorts of things to kind of help us put each one

of these in a historical context.

And so we're just going to take these in order.

And so today we are starting with the prophet Hosea.

Hosea. And this is actually, to me, here's the thing. It was

like 14 chapters.

Yeah. I feel like Hosea, man, he's on the

fence. That seems long enough

to be a major prophet. Oh, yeah. Book of Daniel is not much longer

than that. Right. It's kind of a decent book, even like some of these other

ones. You can tell definitely. That's why he splits the difference. He's right there in

the middle. It's a little bit like maybe you get to decide for

yourself. Yeah, it surprised me going back to it,

because there's this big picture thing that he's saying

and illustration that he's giving us. And

you don't think about it being 14 chapters? No, it is. Yeah, it

is. All right, so historically, we got this

prophet, Hosea, and he's, again, like you said, he's got a pretty

significant message and a wild way that

God is having him illustrate this deal. But let's

set it in its historical context. Where are we in the history

of the jewish people at the time that Hosea is making these

prophecies? Okay, so if I'm right. It's

during one of the reign, the reign of one of the worst kings that they

had. Jeroboam II. Yes. Kind of

focused on the northern kingdom. Right.

200 years after this is after the split. Right. So we had three

kings that were under a united monarchy, and then they split into two.

The northern kingdom being Israel, the southern kingdom being Judah.

Okay, so side question. Side question. So you got these

two kingdoms, and normally when we talk, we just

know we're talking about Israel and we know Judah's

in there somewhere. How does that work into these?

Are most of the prophets talking to one or the other,

or is it to both? How should we

view that? Well, I mean, there's a sense in

mean, the fact that they're recorded in the Bible means that big picture that God

wanted to have, wanted to have the broadest of audiences. He wants

us to still be reading it and learning something from it. And so in the

broadest sense, the answer is it's for everybody.

And I think there are some that I think that we're going to see that

are very, very targeted. The story of Jonah, for

instance, is about a very specific message through a

group of people that aren't even Israelites. This was something that, a message

that God had given to Jonah, to the Ninevites, which is this gentile

group of people. And I think that we'll see some things like that where

this is a very targeted message to a very

specific group of people. And I think there are going to be some that

are kind of addressing everybody all at once,

but from time to time, he'll call one particular

group out. That's the thing I feel like I noticed in Hosea, there's

like, he seems to be, I was going to say a lot of

bullets in his gun, but this is way older than that. He's got a lot

of arrows in his quiver, and he seems to be shooting

most of those arrows at the northern kingdom.

But he does mention Judah from time to time as

well. Is that your impression? And I think there's also this

sense, too. So it's a little bit like, if you say, hey,

guys, what you mean by that is kind of different on the context.

If it's a mixed group, you may be talking to everybody,

or if it's a group of guys over here and a group of women

over here, and you say guys, and context

kind of tells you whether or not you're talking to just the guys or you're

using it as an overarching term. I know not all women love the

fact that you may say guys and refer to everybody, I'm just using that as

an example, but it's the same kind of deal with Israel. There's some instances in

which Israel may mean everybody who is

of jewish descent, or he may be

specifically referring to the northern kingdom of

Israel. And I found in Hosea he also used

the word ephraim. Did you notice that? Right.

So Ephraim is just one of the tribes,

and it's an unusual thing. And so did

you look it up? Because I looked it up. I didn't. I looked it up

because I was like, why Israel and Judah? I understand that.

Then who's Ephraim? Right. I knew that

that particular tribe was one of the eleven tribes

that was in the northern kingdom. And I think

the impression that I got, if we're going to keep using my guys,

if guys is everybody and women is women, and

so then guys is Israel and Judah and women is Judah. That

Ephraim is kind of shorthand for very specifically

making sure he is talking about the northern kingdom, that

since Israel can have a broader

context, he is making it very clear when he says Ephraim

that he's referring very specifically to the northern

kingdom of Israel. Was there anything specific about them in

their level of disobedience?

Is there anything that would make him call them out in particular? I'm not aware

of such a thing.

Interesting. All right, so we're

in the late, I

guess early eigth century BC,

targeting primarily the northern kingdom, but a little bit. Enough

arrows for everybody. Primarily during the reign

of Jeroboam II. And also

at the same time, seemed like there were a lot of different. Like

Judah was experiencing a lot more turnover in kings, some

good, some bad. But Jeroboam II

was considered. He was one of the worst.

So Hosea's got a whole lot of things to say.

And so I guess before we get to the content of what he said,

we have to start with. Before we get to the content of what he say.

The book starts with an interaction

between God and Hosea, where God asks Hosea to do something

and then it plays out. You want to give us kind of

the highlights of that. What was going on in those first couple

chapters? Yeah, I mean, asking him to marry a

prostitute and to have children with her

and then specifically names the children

some really difficult names that you

wouldn't. Right. I don't think we would choose to name our

kids. It just calls Hosea to do a

really difficult thing, to make an illustration

that's man it's really powerful and

it. Seems like they're married

and that some bad things happen and she leaves

him and he has to go and get her back.

So he marries someone that at a

minimum, there is some debate about whether or not she was

most definitely a prostitute. If it

was God predicting that she was going to be an

unfaithful wife, if she was just someone

who

know, already known to be someone who was

having sex outside of marriage. But

regardless, God was putting Hosea into a

situation to marry someone

that God knew was not going to be faithful to Hosea and probably

already had some sort of inclination that she

was already currently not being faithful. And

then they get married and

she is unfaithful and now she's living with some other dude, it looks

like, and God says, and go and bring her back.

So I don't know if you've got a great answer to this question. I don't

think I've got a great answer to this question. So maybe we can just banter

about either, both of our insufficient answers to this

question. Why would God do

this?

Yeah, I mean, putting myself in Hosea's shoes, I've always felt

like, my goodness, man, and a lot of these prophets, I mean, the things that

they were called to do were

just hard, difficult things for God

to get his message across to Israel. Right. But I don't

know that there's one that to me is more difficult than

this man

to love, to trust, and to

have trust broken and then to forgive

and he even has to pay

to get her back. Right. And the

forgiveness, all of the commitment, it's

just. Yeah. Why would God do.

He wants to make his point. His point is very important. He's definitely making

a point, is a point that I feel like that could be told as well

with a parable. You know what I mean? Let

me tell you a story about a guy who took on a wife

knowing that she was going to be unfaithful to

him and he loved her and then she was

unfaithful to him and then he went because he

loved her so much and paid a price to get her

back even though she was unfaithful to him. And then he were

to say, and that is how God is with you. He has taken on

you and he loves you, knowing that you're going to be unfaithful.

And when you are unfaithful, he will go to where you

are and pay a price for you to bring you

back. The very powerful statement. Very

powerful statement for them in that time

has an overwhelming amount of foreshadowing

or dare I say

prophecy about the coming of Jesus.

Right. So the message is very clear. It's powerful.

I think most of us without a whole lot of Bible study

help can get that

big picture message. There's something about it, man,

that he asked Hosea to do it, to live

it mean

that is driving the point home. Well, in

Hosea's personal, the depths

of understanding that he would have

on the other side of,

I think there is something about the messenger

understanding it at those depths. It's not just a story. I

experienced this, but in order for. It to be, and this is kind

of where I don't know if I'm letting God off the hook or I'm just

trying to make the story more palatable to me. But

in order for Hosea to

really understand the message he would have needed

to have loved her, it

wouldn't be like, hey, go take this woman you don't even know, don't even care

about, don't even worry and bring into your house, make

her a wife or one of your wives or whatever because

I'm going to play this out so people can see it and be

like, whatever, I guess. But

again, what you're saying for this to really have driven

home in the heart of Hosea, I think this

is something that was lived out and almost

for me. And again, I am

clearly putting an asterisk next to this.

To me, when the story is written

is probably after it has already happened. And

part of me, the way that it feels like it reads is

mean. This is who's Hosea married?

And I think God knew she was going to be unfaithful.

And maybe at that moment, Jose maybe didn't,

then she was unfaithful. And then the big

thing that God called him to do was

to go and get her back. But upon

reflection, Hosea realizes, hey, God

wanted me to marry her. I loved her and he called me to

marry her. But he knew then maybe something

that Hosea didn't know then. God knew from the beginning

she was going to be unfaithful. But even still, at a minimum,

Hosea knew that she had already been unfaithful to him

when he went to go pay to bring her back.

Now I've got a question too, and maybe I'm just going to say this question.

You're going to give me eyebrows and you're going to put it back to me

because again, I don't know that I've got a great answer to this. Either

he says, call and have a son and name your

son this and name your daughter this, and one of them is

named not loved. Right? The daughter,

right? Yeah. There's a daughter name. Yeah. Not

loved. Do we think that's metaphorical?

And it's just like, hey, think about

her. Like, just in my

brain, it's like, hosea's got a daughter, and he's just like, hey,

not loved. Come here.

What?

It was more a symbolic, but, like, her name was

Jennifer, but just, like,

symbolically, for the purposes

of this book that we're writing, this prophecy that we're

putting together, I want you to think

of these children that you have in these stages that I'm

taking Israel through. But as

a dad of three daughters, in my heart, I just cannot really imagine that Hosea

had, I'm sorry, dad. Why do you call me not loved? God

told me. I don't know. You had any response

to that or you just kind of like, because the story is

wild. The story is wild. And then it always

makes us uncomfortable. And so,

like you said a minute ago, we start wanting to give God

an out, but it makes it really difficult to pick which parts of

this we think were real and which ones.

It feels like this is the story,

right? If we're all in, we're all in.

This is happening. It is certainly shocking enough to

make us slow down and really think about what's going on.

Mean, we could have just started with the prophecies

and all the harsh things that God is telling

Hosea to say to the people, and it would have had some

impact. But those first couple chapters,

man, they make you stop and really think

about what God's relationship was like with them.

Which kind of leads us to the question, maybe we're already sort of answering it.

What's the big idea here? What is the purpose of this

book? What is God at his core? What is he trying to get

across. To his, you know,

just like Hosea has this marriage relationship with

Gomer, there is this covenant relationship

between God and his people, and he loves them

deeply, and he expects that return of

love and allegiance and

obedience, and they've

gone and given his love to

another, to idols, to other deities.

The covenant relationship is broken. And we get to see,

this is how God responds to that.

This is how this loving God works.

Yes. So

the foreign God that seems to have creeped in is

called Baal, right? And

Baal, apparently, literally translated, means

master.

And there's an interesting point in there in

Hosea where basically what God says is

you're no longer going to call me master,

but we will have

this love relationship again,

which ends up being a play on words. Yeah, I saw that, but I didn't

realize that background. So it's a play on words on it. It's

like you are confusing me for this foreign God, which I

am not. And you're worshipping this foreign God, and this foreign God is

named master, but you're not going to call me master

anymore. You're going to call me beloved. Right.

And so he's literally talking about the name Baal

that they're calling him, but also really kind of a, he's really

asking them to rethink and reimagine

what their relationship with him is like. And

in a series that we did in January

at the Grove, we're talking about all these different ways that we could love God.

And then the one Sunday that you did, you talked about kind

of heart relationship

to me. That was kind of a big draw there of just kind of like,

you view this as a master relationship. And

it's not that there aren't elements of that,

but I don't want you to think of it as turn yourself as, like,

a rebellious servant. I want you to think

of yourself as an adulterous spouse, which

has a level of harshness to it, but it also has a

level of heart in it

where God's like, you're not just not

doing what I'm saying. You have broken

my heart the way my man Hosea's heart has been

broken. And so as harsh as the book is, actually,

it's also really rather tender. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. And I was

just going to throw out one of my kind of a bow on that thought.

The Hosea 66 is one of my favorite

verses from the book that speaks to that, where he

says, I desire steadfast love, not

sacrifice the knowledge of God, rather than burnt

offerings. This picture of, I mean, that's

what I want from you. You've missed what I want from you. This is who

I am. I want you. I want your heart.

And yes, that plays out in obedience and these other things, but it's not.

The burnt offerings minus the heart are pointless.

Yeah. So the Baal, the false God, the

master, you sacrifice to him, too.

And so in some ways, you think, man, I'm making sacrifices. We'll call you by

a different name. What difference does it make? You

said, you're missing the point. There's something different that

I want from you. I had that verse down, too, as a key verse I

wanted to talk about, and you go up just a few verses before it. I

had this one, too. In verse three says, let us acknowledge the

Lord. Let us press on to acknowledge him. As

surely as the sun rises, he will appear, he will come to us

like the water rains, like the spring rains that water

the earth. Again,

that's not the way that a master talks to a

servant. It's not the way a king talks to a subject. And it's not a

way a God talks to his followers.

None of them would describe themselves as the

spring rains that water the earth.

Like an embracing of God. It's going to be full of

refreshment and life and

connection. And so, like I said, even

in the strong words

that God is telling Hosea to say, we see

so much of this tenderness that God is wanting to

have. And so I think you found it. I think verse, chapter

six, those are the verses.

If people read Hosea, people who really like this book, those

are a couple of the verses that they really connect with. Did you have any

others that really jump out at you? I might

say this for the end. I mean, the very last verse, I think, speaks to

that this is still powerful for us today, that this

is evergreen and it's

power, it is to a specific people at a specific time,

but it's not just stuck there. Right

on that thought. I feel like

when we talk about these prophets,

there's a lot of hard words,

a lot of promise of

God's judgment and accusation

of you've sinned against him, you've messed

up in this way or that way. And so a lot of the attention goes

there. But man, on the backside of each one of these,

and Hosea is a great example, man. There's this huge

message of hope and this tender heart of

God and the reality that it always feels like

this tension between his holiness and

what that means to be in covenant with a holy God. Right? And

then also his. But then a lot of times it's easy to focus

so much on that, that you miss that his love is huge,

right. And in the midst of his judgment, there's also this

grace and mercy. But it gets missed so much.

Yeah. I think one of the challenges, one of the struggles that we have

with books like this that have such a strong,

for lack of a better phrase, such a strong judgment

message to them, when we imagine, not

imagine, we understand that God is a very merciful God and the

sacrifice of Jesus. And we think about God

very often in terms of just being full of

mercy, full of grace. And then we read books like

this and they sometimes can feel off

putting or harsh. But really

the cycle is the same

because who Hosea is talking to here is a group of

people who are currently in active rebellion against

God. And there's two things that he is

desperately trying to communicate to a group of people who

are in active rebellion against him.

Don't I love you?

And sometimes when we're on the other end of that, having

experienced that grace and mercy

from God, and we're kind of on the other end of that, having already

understood, I know, don't I

know I'm not supposed to? And I know that God loves

me. And then I read this book and it feels like that from

where I currently am reconciled to God,

that God is giving me this message

when you're not in the active rebellion

stage anymore. And so I think for a lot of us,

books like this should be

a refreshing reminder

of where I used to be. And

I think recognizing the context,

if you are a devoted follower of Jesus Christ, you are not

where the northern kingdom was in the early 8th century

BC, active idol worship, active

rebellion, active sin in every possible way. Complete ignoring

of God and anything that he wants. If you are

in that season, I'm glad you're reading

Hosea because stop and know

that God loves you. There's another verse

because I want to get to the part where kind of talk about the big

picture, but before we get to that, there's skip up a little

bit. I like this,

chapter four, verse six. And

God says, my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

Because you have rejected knowledge. I have rejected you as my

priests. Again,

referencing a series that we did in January about

all the different ways that God wants to connect with us. There's so much heart

in here. There's a lot of description of active

disobedience. But then there's also this description

of, you know, how you got here

because you didn't

know. You were just wrong about who

I am. You have wrongly described me.

You have wrongly understood me because you have wrongly

understood me. You have broken my heart and are

in disobedience. And just kind of the interweaving

connectedness of those three things,

of a heart, love for God, an

active obedience, and a genuine thirst

and desire for knowledge about who he is. I

think you get a weaving of all three of those things.

We see it as like God doesn't like it when you sin.

That is true. God does not like it when you sin. But

what Hosea is saying here, what God is relaying to this people through

Hosea is so much deeper and more

complicated than that. All right,

so we've already shot ourselves in the foot a little bit by saying it's 14

chapters, so this is a longer one. And so for a lot of people,

this would not be a one sitting read. It might be a two or

three sitting read. So you would read this over a couple

of days. So we've given some people some historical context,

talked about the big idea. We've got

this story about Hosea and Gohmer. Hey, by the way, I'll tell you

this. When we were in the process

of naming kids, people would ask if we're going to give our

kids biblical names. It's like, yeah, we got a great name for a girl and

was Dorcas Gomer. Dorcas is a girl's name

in the New Testament. Dorcas Gomer. And our boy's name was

Rufus Puddins. Also two great names from the.

Anyways, big picture,

why should somebody want to read and study,

reflect on this particular book?

Oh,

man. Being completely honest.

Want to is a hard word. I think for me, my study of

this is heart wrenching.

And so one of the questions I like to ask in Bible study is,

what do you not like? Because I think, what do you not like kind

of reveals sometimes even deeper things

than what you do. You like. And what I don't like

is I don't like that God asked Hosea to

do a. It's a hard

story that

it's difficult for me to take in that break of

trust and at the same time very

effective in that I see that, man, I don't know that

I have that in me. And this

God, that's the truth about my story

and this truth about Israel and that God would be that kind

of God that would love at that level.

But it's not an easy one. It's like that movie you watch that I've heard

you say this sometimes about movies. It's like I'll say, is that one you should

go watch? And you're like, well,

it depends on what you're trying to get. If you're going to have a good

time and laugh, it's not the book to read. Right. But,

man, if the point is

made and it's one that will make you

cry. Yeah, I think it's one of those ones that

if I were going to motivate somebody to read it, it is going to stretch.

It is going to stretch your idea about who God is

and the way he looks at us and he does it in a way that

makes you so uncomfortable. You can

only choose to do it. It can't be

ignored. If you're really going to read it, you can't just read through

it. There's so many points along the way that you're

like, I'm sorry, what? And

your brain is going to have to process that. What did

I just read? And what does this say

about my God? And it

is either going to have to be completely ignored or it can

only expand your view and understanding about who God is and the

way he views us.

In that sense, I recommend it. But if you were saying it's not a

Monday afternoon feel good movie, right? It's not that.

If that's what you're looking for, if you're looking for a pick me up in

the morning before you head off to work, I wouldn't choose it. Also,

that verse I was talking about earlier in chapter 14, the very last verse

of the book, whoever is wise,

let him understand these things. Whoever is

discerning, let him know them. For the ways

of the Lord are right and the upright walk in

them. Let transgressors stumble in them.

And to me, that's the statement that just feels like that is

not just for one audience. This is

whoever is wise, let him understand these things.

It's like a call to hey, yeah, this book has power for us,

so you should probably spend some time in it.

I got no better way to end the episode than that, man. That's an awesome

word. Thanks for ending us with that. And

thank you guys for joining us. And I do hope that you'll spend some time

studying and reading Hosea this week. Honestly, if I were going to be

listening to this podcast, I think I would choose to

maybe try to read it beforehand and

then listen to this podcast and then read it after. Or at a minimum,

certainly spend some time over the next week reading and reflecting on

this prophetic book yourself. And

then next week we'll be in Joel. And so again, thank you so much for

joining us. Mark, as always, thank you for being here on the podcast

and hope that if you're not connected at the Grove church,

that you would take that step whether you're in town or out of town

and you can join us in person or you want to join us online. Either

way, we'd love to get to know you and connect with you and you can

find us@thegrovechurch.org slash Connect. Again, thanks for

joining us here on the Cultivate podcast at the Grove church.